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DizzyKungFu

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Reply with quote  #721 
I ended up just deleting the Dominion Cruiser out of the vesseldata.XML file, so we won't have that problem the next time we play.

Let us know how the overhaul is going and if you find anything in the start sequence, thanks Mark!
MarkBell

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Reply with quote  #722 
I'm guessing the cruiser mesh is giving us heartburn, considering it's a 15 MB file compared to the more typical 1-3 MB.  (Definitely not the 20 kB textures lol).  The updated version has much less complex geometry - not a bad thing, as most of the original geometry was stuff you'd never be able to see in the game.  Nothing in the start sequence yet, but I'm still looking.
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ron77

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Reply with quote  #723 

My two cents' worth:

1) I have found that graphics often don't crash the game right away. When working on a mod, I had messed up the file path for player ships. The game didn't crash until the ship was viewed in the "customize ship" option. Similar experiences with non-player assets in the game: the game didn't crash until the object should have become visible in the game.

2) A game crashing on mission/scenario launch generally means there is a problem with a) the assets loaded for the mission/scenario or b) the code. Since I don't usually play missions, I cannot comment on those. But for scenarios, because you don't actually code anything concerning the scenario itself, the problem is almost always related to a faulty line of code in the vessel data, like inconsistent unique ship ID numbers or something of the sort.

3) In one (sadly incomplete) mod test, evidence seemed to point towards wrong use of beam_ports and torpedo_ports for non-player ships. I thought the game would just ignore any line of code it doesn't need (like torpedo_ports because npc ships only use drone_ports) but couldn't actually confirm that.

MarkBell

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Reply with quote  #724 
Yeah, that's my experience too - it'll happily "load" a corrupted mesh or broken path into the game, but you won't know until you're zooming around the map at warp 4 trying to check enemies and then the helm keeps going for a few seconds while the main screen crashes lol

That's what I've been trying to track down, with obviously limited success as per the pages of typos you all have been finding 😋  It's also tricky since I don't know when it'll happen, and what assets are doing it.  All the unique_ID values are unique, especially for the player ships and bases.  It doesn't seem to matter what difficulty level I'm playing on, and I've been having trouble reproducing it at all lately.

In general, the game does ignore incompatible entries, except for when it crashes and burns when it doesn't 😋  PC and NPC ships both require beam_port entries for beams, with separate damage and playerdamage values.  I typically use about 1:10 ratios, since the difficulty level of the mission multiplies the NPC beam damage. 

Also, in case anyone was really curious, leaving out the performance block on the fighter means it doesn't move at all, doesn't turn, but still returns to the ship if it's close enough! (fixed Danube Attacker...)

Uploaded a revised version of the mod, mostly fixes and tweaks to vesselData.  Klingon player race is now "KDF Pirate", since I wasn't sure if having a player and an enemy race with Klingon in the title was messing things up.

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ron77

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Reply with quote  #725 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBell
In general, the game does ignore incompatible entries, except for when it crashes and burns when it doesn't 😋  PC and NPC ships both require beam_port entries for beams, with separate damage and playerdamage values.  I typically use about 1:10 ratios, since the difficulty level of the mission multiplies the NPC beam damage.

I was referring to something else with beam_ports that made the game crash. I'm not sure what it was, but since I built a hedgehog of a gunship, it might have been sheer amount of beam_ports or something. 😋

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBell
Uploaded a revised version of the mod, mostly fixes and tweaks to vesselData.  Klingon player race is now "KDF Pirate", since I wasn't sure if having a player and an enemy race with Klingon in the title was messing things up.

I think it would mess things up. I have a similar experience with a different mod and things went definitely pear-shaped when the same faction name was used for a player and a non-player faction. (Some other things might have been the cause, too, but this sounds to me as the most logical reason for the crash.)
MarkBell

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Reply with quote  #726 
Oh, I see what you mean. Do you think it was related to the 38 port max on you mentioned in the FAQ thread?

I'm not sure that's it, honestly - it happened just as randomly no matter the player ship I was using. Most of the time Artemis doesnt care what you call the race itself, as long as the race ID is different. It didn't even care that I had a player and friendly race both named Starfleet, except when randomly assigning fighters.  Granted, I could be missing some bizarre gotcha that is occasionally tripping me up, and if this fixes it, great! 

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ron77

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Reply with quote  #727 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBell
Oh, I see what you mean. Do you think it was related to the 38 port max on you mentioned in the FAQ thread?

I don't think that's the case. I think the game might have just gotten bogged down with more beam_ports than it displayed and that lead to other issues. But I'm not really sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBell
I'm not sure that's it, honestly - it happened just as randomly no matter the player ship I was using. Most of the time Artemis doesnt care what you call the race itself, as long as the race ID is different. It didn't even care that I had a player and friendly race both named Starfleet, except when randomly assigning fighters.  Granted, I could be missing some bizarre gotcha that is occasionally tripping me up, and if this fixes it, great!

IIRC, the mission editor allows you to select ships via unique_ID and via hullrace + size. If there are two separate instances of Klingon medium, it might just be the problem.
MarkBell

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Reply with quote  #728 
Typically when the game has multiple valid options, it'll either take the first available option (like picking a beam_port) or a random option (typically seen when calling ships in missions).  In this particular instance, the player race Klingon ships only have the player tag, not medium, so they wouldn't be an option to call in either case.  (If there are no valid ships with that particular set of keys, then I think it either drops hullrace and goes for size, or vice versa, I can't remember.  Either way you get a random ship - might be a fighter or dreadnought, might be Romulan or Borg, I'm not sure 😋 ) There might still be some other weird interaction between player and enemy races that we haven't discovered yet - maybe when it's determining enemy locations or something, I don't know.  I suspect it's probably some other problem, but it's really hard to sort it out with it being so random.
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ron77

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Reply with quote  #729 
Like I said, I'm really not sure what it was. But since the amount of beam_ports was all I changed, I figured something about it messed with the game somehow. Even though none of my previous experience supported that assumption. 
DizzyKungFu

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Reply with quote  #730 
OK, I think I can confirm the problem is with vesseldata.XML. I replaced the TNG vesseldata.XML with the same file from the base game (so I was basically playing the TNG mod with all the original ships). Started Artemis.exe, started server, connected clients, Solo Game, Start Game, no problem!, flew around for a few seconds, exited all computers out to desktop, repeat. Did this 20 times, no crashes! Then I replaced the TNG vesseldata.XML back in and BAM, I got a crash right away!

So the problem most likely lies in the mod's vesseldata.XML. Not sure how to figure out specifically what tho...
ron77

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Reply with quote  #731 
A few more things we need to determine then: Which machine actually crashes?
  1. If it's Engineering, then it's most likely the internal file. Although I have seen crashes on Helm and Weapons and sometimes even the Main Screen as well if the problem was more widespread and had to do with the little ship icons used in the LRS and TAC displays, for which the internal is used as well.
  2. If it's just the Main Screen upon launch of a scenario, and it happens consistently in several games in a row, it's gotta be something that loads consistently every time. Which leaves not too many culprits. Is there always a station near the player spawn? Are there any other assets, like friendly ships, that spawn near the player ship?
  3. Alternatively, I have seen just the Main Screen crash when there were issues with the insults and immunities. I wasn't able to track down the problem then, but it was something in that block.
MarkBell

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Reply with quote  #732 
Hmm, have you updated from the latest download file? I haven't been able to reproduce it at all on one of my computers.  And it's consistent?
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DizzyKungFu

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Reply with quote  #733 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBell
Hmm, have you updated from the latest download file? I haven't been able to reproduce it at all on one of my computers.  And it's consistent?


No, unfortunately it's not consistent. See my earlier post about the weekend group session. To summarize, it's the Start Game crash that is most prevalent. If the game actually starts, it's usually pretty stable. Maybe it's because start stuff is random on Solo Games? 

When it crashes, it's almost always the server/main screen computer. Occasionally I'll get a client go out with it, usually helm or weapons.
MarkBell

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Reply with quote  #734 
Hmm, I'm not sure what's causing it. I'm guessing something in the setup, since I recall it happening on a basically bare sector. Have you tried the updated vesselData I put up this afternoon? I haven't been able to reproduce it on my testing machine, which makes this tricky.   I wonder if I missed something in one of the stations maybe?
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Note - this is in no way intended to be an official position of Thom or Artemis, as I am not an official representative of the creator or game.
DizzyKungFu

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Reply with quote  #735 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBell
Hmm, I'm not sure what's causing it. I'm guessing something in the setup, since I recall it happening on a basically bare sector. Have you tried the updated vesselData I put up this afternoon? I haven't been able to reproduce it on my testing machine, which makes this tricky.   I wonder if I missed something in one of the stations maybe?


OK, I'll grab a new download and try again soon. Is there any way we can get ahold of Thom's debugging tools? It would be SO helpful if a log file or something could tell us what causes a crash!!
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