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Douglas01

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Reply with quote  #1 

Hello everyone,

Since I've been slowly losing interest in Artemis over the last little while, I thought that it would be best if I pass on some of the knowledge that I've collected; I was looking for this type of information when I started playing, but found it scattered all over or not even written. So here it is, my guides (and engineering calculators), available to all, as is. Feel free to submit comments for corrections, but I may be slow on the uptake now that I'm not playing as much.

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Douglas’s all-in-one guides to…
Comms: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KkWsNleRkng2KK1SrNMfz21GuSdrC-DS6Yaydvg9-6E/edit?usp=sharing

Science: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f00l_W_cafdflX02veo6vIr49qJN9MdUw8AGFgzCfwo/edit?usp=sharing

Weapons: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xkBl3Bsv5sUUZ6sx_bjiBm1z9aZzD32fbMh6Gspb-M4/edit?usp=sharing

Captain/XO: https://docs.google.com/document/d/14yveVSqdECkWqETy4sGZz3j4SgzCtE3mu2BOvgPJlRw/edit?usp=sharing

Engineering: https://docs.google.com/document/d/10S-k8CCyWef18iXzm4SbdsrTc9ssM1cowVr2rzod7xo/edit?usp=sharing

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Ship statistics and the effects of engineering:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KyJRnpOqSpdX8PLepHyKnEqAjM7BQb8bpMtPvTqDpmU/edit?usp=sharing

Engineering calculators:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MbNzkA4uAVEda4hKnZ-w7ZSjrQpSaW-AtcuV1VOhSho/edit?usp=sharing

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Helm (VERY incomplete, not worth much...):
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KI-GMgY4sIEF6y_J4e-11xaYHFdY96wpZ-ARz1Bvq_8/edit?usp=sharing

Douglas01

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Reply with quote  #2 
Part 2 - This was something I randomly sent, from an engineering perspective, to a captain of a jump ship dreadnought to put his challenges in perspective:

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Jump energy use for a light cruiser @ difficulty 10:

Dist(k)   EN        EN/dist
1          15         15
2          27         13.5
3          40         13.33333333
4          54         13.5
5          65         13
6          79         13.16666667
7          92         13.14285714
8          105       13.125
9          117       13
10         130       13
11         143       13
12         156       13
13         165       12.69230769
14         181       12.92857143
15         194       12.93333333
16         207       12.9375
17         221       13
18         234       13
19         246       12.94736842
20         259       12.95
21         272       12.95238095
22         288       13.09090909
23         298       12.95652174
24         313       13.04166667
25         324       12.96

No effect on engineering % on the EN consumed by the jump itself.
Jump distance is multiplied by the damage factor of the jump drives.  100% drives = no change (factor of 1).  50% damage = you only jump half the distance (factor of 0.5)

Evaluation: Jump takes 12-15 EN per 1k distance, plus whatever energy was consumed just by having the ship idle for the duration of the jump sequence (especially heavy use from jump @ 300%). Note that battleship at:
50%Beam, 10%torp, 100%sensor, 100%maneuver, 50%impulse, 210%warp, 50%shields (my typical fast-warp-travel preset), battleships can travel at:
Warp 1: 520 distance/second, using 6.6 EN/1k
Warp 2: 1040 distance/second, using 9.1 EN/1k
Warp 3: 1560 distance/second, using 12.4 EN/1k
Warp 4: 2080 distance/second, using 16 EN/1k
I’m estimating that a decent jump crew uses 11 seconds to complete a jump,
= 2 seconds to enter coord + raise engineering, 1 second confirm, 4 second countdown, 2 second black screen, 2 seconds getting re-situated at the new location and reacting

In 11 seconds, the battleship can travel at warp 3 for 17k distance for less EN. At warp 4, it travels 23k distance, and probably uses the same energy in total as a jump ship.

I hand over to you a 4-part challenge - I have failed to beat this challenge, which forms my current opinion. In essence, I have failed to find a major way where a warp-drive battleship could be reliably beaten:

1) A jump ship must have a REQUIREMENT to jump frequently over 17k distance (and not just jump 17k because you can). Otherwise, the warp-battleship will get there first.

2) Minimize combat engagement time. The longer you are fighting something, the less time you have to deal with other simultaneous threats. This is one of the advantages of a missile jump ship in a large (>5 ship) fleet, because they can pop up, fire 2 missiles, and head to the next fight. This is also an advantage of the battleship because of its massive 48-damage beam volleys.

3) Adaptability, or the ability to adjust to the situation. Jump drives don’t have as much ability to maneuver around while inside a fight. The black screen also gives a disadvantage here. This means that if the situation changes even slightly from predictions, the danger is multiplied.

4) Crew required. In essence, I am willing to bet that even I can contribute more on a per-crew-member basis on a warp battleship compared to the crew of a jump ship.

Additional challenges of a dreadnought:
1) The dreadnought’s all-around beams mean that you can kill fighters quite quickly. However, the forward damage will typically be 32 damage per volley (1 heavy beam, 1 normal beam = 20+12), which is short of the battleship’s. This means that generally, you will take longer to kill an enemy. The energy inefficiency of the dreadnought compounds this problem by using more energy for shields and beams.

2) Dreadnought’s slow turning speed makes it far less adaptable, while it’s all-around beams make it more adaptable. I think overall though, this is a negative, but you may have had successes that I have not.

If you can solve these problems, you will have an amazing jump-DN guide. Good luck!

Arrew

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Reply with quote  #3 
I accepts your challenge!

Did you not check out the Jump Guide and vids? Answers most of your questions.

1. Jump is just plain harder than warp. But sometimes that's the fun. In the challenge and expression of skill.

But over distancec jump is faster. So The trick is to take out the battle ships supply lines. In PVP take out his base then retreat to defend your own.

They will destroy your base but if you had time to dock you should have an energy advantage.

But to be honest that's not really enough. Jump v Warp PVP is David and Goliath. Jump shines more in PVE and RP.

2. The trick is to think of homings as reserve power not missiles (see guide). Comms surrender and plasma Torps are helpful in conserving time and ordnance.

3. Yes and no. A jump ship can return to base, refuel, repair, rearm, charge shields and get back into the fighter FASTER than Warp. Used strategically this makes them MORE adaptable. The difference is jump required tactics and a strategy to each situation.

4. Effective jump crews just need practice, same as warp. You've just played more warp so your more experienced in that. I'd like to get some jump crews together some time.

1. A jump dreadnaught fighting fighters with beams? That's using warp tactics with a jump ship. On boosted settings they'll cut you apart. You should engage with a "flip" . (See Guid & Vids.) It's the heavy beams, third tube and extra homings that make Dreadnaughts better Jump choices. For instance they can "barrage" (is that the right spelling?) through enemy anti torps where Battleships can't, which is true both with jump and warp.

2. As long as you approach from the right angle you shouldn't need to turn much. Use your heavy beams to "pound/grind" the enemy. (See Guide & Vids.) Manually target their beams and move in for the kill when they go down. Doesn't work well on heavy Skaraans though.

That's supper awesome you're getting into jump. There are quite a few of us. Would be great to get together and game some time?

If you want to know more about jump tactics let me know. [smile]
Douglas01

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Reply with quote  #4 
Hoho, my favourite guide-maker has responded.  I numbered my responses according to your reply.

(I preface my responses that my statements are mainly from math and PAST experience - as I said, I just don't play as much any more)

1) Yes, jumping over 17k distance is faster than warp.  But jumping 5k distance is slower than warp.  Maybe it's from my impressions playing with the USN's boosted settings, but I rarely had to anywhere farther than 15k.  (Alternatively, when I was regularly traveling more than 15k, I had to option to get a coffee before coming back to the game.)  This is from foggy memory though.  However, the point stands - if you have a strategy that efficiently jumps >17k regularly, jump is better.  If not, then warp is faster.

2) I don't understand your statement about homings... I also use them mainly for utility rather than damage.  My statement about missile cruisers was that they pop in, drop heavy ordnance, and leave the leftovers for someone else to mop up.  That way, the missile cruiser jumps VERY rapidly, and travels far faster than a warp ship.  As an example: if you took 11 seconds to jump into combat, and 50 seconds to finish combat, you're slower than the ship that took 15 seconds to warp into combat and 30 seconds to finish combat.

3) See a mix of the above.

4) Sorry, I should explain.  I'm not that good (*points at Corwin*), but I can solo run a warp battleship without major issues.  I have not been able to run a jump ship reliably with fewer than 3 people, and it starts getting good at 5 or 6 people.  Therefore, my contribution as a solo battleship will greatly outweigh my contribution as 1/5 of a jump ship.  I simply found that a jump ship almost requires a designated navigator (Capt/Sci) and engineer, which takes up two brains.  Meanwhile, I can steer a warp ship to the nearest 10 degrees, and adjust from there instead of needing to stop, plot the jump with accuracy, input, increase power, then jump.  Your mileage may vary [smile]

1) I think backing up (reverse impulse) while shooting is valid for both warp and jump.  Flip involves mines... all ships have mines, and both warp and jump have ways of launching the mine and bailing out.  Being able to barrage through anti-torp is quite valid though; battleships can only fire a homing + EMP or Nuke, while dreadnoughts could fire homing + EMP AND Nuke.

2) I disagree on the "approach" aspect - if you're jumping right into combat, even slight movement could drastically change the angle.  If you're approaching using impulse, you don't have as much control over engagement compared with warp.  Either that or I'm missing something completely.


I'm more than willing to stimulate others' minds, and I'm honoured by the invite.  Unfortunately, as I've mentioned, I'm more on the way out at the moment.  When I feel inspired to play seriously again, I'll ask again [smile]

I'll continue to monitor this thread + the documents for the next little while, and hopefully get as many questions out of the way as possible.

Arrew

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Reply with quote  #5 
Merry Christmas? [wink]

1. Yeah I agree with you, particularly on boosted settings I found it way more efficient, and easier tactically, to taunt the enemy and let them come to me.

What do you mean a strategy to Jump greater than 17K?
I tend to Taunt and then jump that direction -1k to -4k.
You could use something like the quick intercept chart, but that’s still hit and miss.

2. I was just referencing your comment on minimizing combat engagement time.

I think Jump relies more heavily on ordnance as a requirement for speed.

3. You, me and Xavier have all tried to find a way that makes Jump better than warp. I remember asking him what the silver lining was and he said there wasn’t one. Jump is very much the hard mode. That’s why I asked and hoped that Jump could perhaps be given some love if or when the Ximni ever arrive.

Although we, aka Jumpers, can Flip and Hop which warp just can’t do. That perhaps makes us better at handling fighters, taking out Elites with mines and environmental shenanigans like attacking and jumping to the other side of a mine field.

The trade off for those are pretty huge when you think about unforgiving Jump is and all the things that Warp does well that we don’t, Echo mine runs for example.

4. Based on my last conversation with Corwin I think he’d agree that the only difference between him and you is practice. Jump ships are no different. I made tons of mistakes. It’s just practice and drilling the protocols into yourself. I’ve soloed a level 10 in a Jump MC but it took like an hour.

Soloing with a Warp Battleship is easier. But overcoming a more difficult challenge is what makes it more rewarding.


****

1. Be careful reversing in a Jump ship. If you need to do an emergency flip you could well reverse into your own mine. I mostly use a MC and fight Skaraans so my usual tactics may vary from yours.

True both warp and jump can deploy mines but we can essentially deploy them in front of us, between us and the enemy, by using a flip.

Battleships can also bypass anti-torps by doing a Hop (close range EMP, Nuke, Jump), and it’s something only Jump drivers can do.

2. You need to dominate and controls the engagement to make sure everything is where you want it to be. Try not to jump right into combat. Jump further from the enemy. Taunt, Fire Homing or hit with beams to get them where you want them. The dreadnaughts longer heavy beams are useful for this, particularly if you can do rapid intercepts.

But it doesn’t help in PVP and enemy Elites with Jump can really ruins all your plans. Hate those guys.



Well it’s a shame you’re taking a break. It would be cool to formulate some Jump fleet strategies. Perhaps in the future. If we could rope in Comsic that would make three Jumpers.
Arrew

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Reply with quote  #6 
Oh I forgot to ask.

If you don't mind saying, what would you say is your reason for leaving/taking a break from Artemis?
ryleyra

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Reply with quote  #7 
IMHO, Jump Drive is flavor more than an advantage over Warp. It's sort of like trying decide whether the Battleship or the Dreadnought is the better ship; each has their own advantages and disadvantages, and one crew's style might favor one over the other. I'll also note that while the Dreadnought doesn't have the concentrated firepower of a Battleship, it has more missiles and longer range, meaning it can rely on kiting tactics. This lends an advantage to Jump Drive. (As does the fact that Warp on a Dreadnought costs more energy, but Jump doesn't)

I will have to look over your guides in more detail, but I like what I read so far. In the Comms guide, the "unconfirmed factor" that can enable friendly warships to take on whole fleets is Difficulty. Your rating of 1/2 a Light Cruiser for an Escort and 1 3/4 of a Light Cruiser for a Destroyer is their base damage. Their damage is multiplied by difficulty up to level 5, meaning that at diff 5+ beam damage is 2.5 times a Light Cruiser for an Escort and 8.75 times a Light Cruiser for a Destroyer. Or as I like to put it, the Destroyer does 35 damage per shot, or 210 damage every 6 seconds.

Of course, this has no effect on shields, so the Destroyer is very much a Glass Cannon. The suggestion to have Comms Taunt a ship in order to draw enemy fire away from a Destroyer can help it survive. This is since Artemis 2.0, in Artemis 1.7 the Destroyer (which was really just the Escort) did fixed damage. I've posted on this subject before, and I'm trying to talk Thom into taking a look at it.
Arrew

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Reply with quote  #8 
Agree with the above. Mostly flavor.

Jump on a dreadnaught did cost more energy. Has this changed in 2.2?
Douglas01

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Reply with quote  #9 
Arrew,
Thanks again for your response.

1) by 17k, I meant that you regularly jump a distance of 17 (entered into the jump command) or more.  Or you can express that as 1.7 sector-lengths.  That was because a warp ship can travel ~17k distance just as fast as a jump ship can travel 17k distance. 

3) Yup.  I agree with Ryleyra here, jump is FUN.  However, what isn't fun (for my circumstances anyways) is trying to get enough people to play Artemis, let alone train as a regular group to the point where we can handle a jump ship well.  

4) I somewhat disagree.  Warp is easier, IMO, because you are making many small decisions frequently.  Jump, you make fewer big decisions, and you ride it out.  As an example, simple navigation.  For warp, I can glance at a map, and in a half-second, I can give a bearing within a 20 degree error, and simply adjust it a few seconds later when I have time.  For jump, I cannot afford to get the bearing wrong by 20, nor get the distance wrong by 2.  Therefore, it takes me a full second or five (I'm slow) to grab my mouse, hover over my destination, fiddle with UI, find out the bearing and distance, and then adjust for how much I want to be offset by.
**
2) Yup, those dang jumpers and elites... xD   And yes, I do agree that dreadnoughts are probably the best ship suited for jump - it's advantages are emphasized, it's disadvantages are slightly less relevant.

As for leaving... to be arrogant and narcissistic here, I feel as if I know a lot about the game mechanics now (*points at guides*).  Obviously, there's tons I don't know, but I've grasped enough of the basic mechanics that I've lost interest in the discovery of further details and ways to use them to my advantage.  For better or worse, that was one reason I've continued playing "hardcore/seriously".  I still play artemis casually as a party game, but when I do, it's about the party and not the game.


Ryleyra,
Likewise, thank you for your comments.  I hope you (or your buddies) will find some of the information in the guides useful.

For the allied ships - Yes, I suspected as much.  Also, I've noted that allied ships hold out surprisingly well during the USN's boosted difficulty runs.  I suspect that they are fully influenced by all factors affecting enemies, including difficulty (as you mentioned, up to 5x beam damage) but also enemy beam, shield, and speed settings.  One could easily test this by running a 60%(?) enemy speed game (peaceful) and comparing the speed with a 300% enemy speed game.  For science!

Meanwhile, I've added my suspicions to the guide.  Hopefully, someone can pick up the torch of research [smile]
ryleyra

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas01
I suspect that they are fully influenced by all factors affecting enemies, including difficulty (as you mentioned, up to 5x beam damage) but also enemy beam, shield, and speed settings.  One could easily test this by running a 60%(?) enemy speed game (peaceful) and comparing the speed with a 300% enemy speed game.  For science!

Meanwhile, I've added my suspicions to the guide.  Hopefully, someone can pick up the torch of research [smile]


I think this is the case too. While I've never tested my suspicions, it seems in keeping with all NPC ships becoming a single category (with only "side" distinguishing them) in Artemis 2.0.

Your finding that system damage of 80% limits that system to 80% power even if it is set higher surprises me too, and contradicts what has been assumed about how that works. I will definitely have to confirm your findings for myself.

Arrew

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Reply with quote  #11 
1. Well a jump is around 4 to 6 seconds including blackout with boosted Jump. That's pretty fast? Although that's not including the time it takes to calculate the actual Jump. As you said, sometimes if the enemy are close it hardly seems worth the effort to tax my brain <LOL>.

You know what might be a cool feature? What if you could right click on the captains map and it would send the coordinates to Helm. That would make jumping a lot easier.

3. Yeah, that plain sucks. In my case getting people to play Artemis full stop. It's kind of a niche game, so I get that it's not for everyone. My backwards time zone means that even online games are either too early or way too late. I have hope of one day getting a regular evening US Central time game going but its a pretty slim hope.

Because it's so hard you can't really run a jump seriously on a casual. Unless it's part of drunken shenanigans [wink] .

I suppose I might have to start whoring myself out as a Jump pilot.

4. Yeah your right, warp is easier. But what I mean to say is that it's just a matter of practice.

I was talking to Corwin about beating a level 11 @ 300% and solo shipping and it mostly boiled down to how willing people were to practice.
I have some ideas, and a running vessel file, about player fighters/escorts. But it's getting people to practice with them. I'd like to make some practice training missions but I just don't have the time right now.




Yeah I get what your saying. There are only so many mine runs you can do before you know how it's going to turn out and just feel bored. 


Douglas01

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Reply with quote  #12 

Ryleyra,
I only noticed that for beams.  I'll be honest, I haven't done enough tests on damage to say much on the other systems to say with certainty.  I have noticed that beams damaged to 80% fire a LOT slower than at 100%.  However, torps at 50% damage 200% power seem to load just as fast as 100% health and 100% power, which makes sense.  These are vague impressions though, and could use more rigorous testing.

------
Arrew,
I think jump takes longer.  Here's my little sketch, second-by-second [smile]

1: "Jump, Face bearing
2: one-three-zero,
3: direction two-
4: zero-one,
5: distance one-
6: one." (Capt)
7: "Ready!"  (Eng)
8: "Jump!" (Capt)
9: "Jumping!... 
10-14: 4...3...2...1...Now. (Helm)
15-18: *blackout*
19-20: *figuring out where you are*

Compared with:
1: "Heading zero-
2: five-zero, warp
3: one."
4-20: *zoom zoom* xD

But yes, one of the big concerns is simply finding enough people to play with.  We can't yet even talk about finding gaming buddies with similar aims (role-play vs. crank the difficulty vs. research vs. jump ftw vs. custom missions).

Arrew

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Reply with quote  #13 

Your absolutely right... I never really thought about the actual time it takes to calculate the jump as a part of the jump time.

Another strike against jump.

Also lets be honest it’s hard to do it, particularly when the stress is on. One wrong number in five and you end up stuck in the black with no power and someone has to get out and push!

 

 

A few people taking a break from the game at the moment. Main two reasons I hear is “bored” with the game play, because they feel the’ve been doing the same thing over and over OR the difficulty of getting in regular “enjoyable” games.

Like you said, it’s hard enough to get into a game let a lone one that fits how you want to play, RP/Game Clan/ Or Whatever...

Arrew

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Reply with quote  #14 
Jump makes the find a game much harder too. Because its so much more difficult to manage and they're the minority I feel that if you understand and can pull off Jump Tactics you should be in command, but then your skills are so rare your skills are waisted if your not at helm... Kind of a Catch 22 of sorts.

I tried to come up with the idea that Jump/Ximni have pilots who are both in command and run helm, in apposite to Captain taking Science which often happens. In most warp groups helm often takes tactical command when pulling of tactical manoeuvres anyway. But then you might, or would, need an overall command and control to oversee the overall battle.

Kind of like the Admiral on the battle bridge in Honour Harrington.
ryleyra

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Reply with quote  #15 
I did some testing. Standard fire rate for a Light Cruiser is every six seconds. Increasing power to 300% reduced fire rate to 2 seconds, as expected. With beams at 25% damage, they fired every 19.4 seconds. At the same damage level, when I increased power to 250%, the fire rate was 7.8 seconds. This is clearly not the same as 19.4 seconds, so I was not able to duplicate the OP's results that damage caps weapon power.

The fire rate of 7.8 is consistent with a 250% increase in fire rate from 19.4. This appears to be the equivalent of 30.9% power to beams.

At 50% damage fire rate was 14.8 seconds. At 250% power it was 5.9. This is the equivalent of 40.5% power.

At 75% damage fire rate was 10.5 seconds. At 250% power it was 4.1. This is the equivalent of 57.1% power.

I repeated the test in both 2.2 and 2.1. I don't know if other systems are effected the same as beams, but I'm guessing this is so that a system will still be useful even when almost destroyed.

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