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ryleyra

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by notsabbat

Pretty sure this is a bug, not a feature.


Yeah. You could say that this is a by-product of the difference between visual contact and the use of sensors. Visual range is 7500, but Helm and Weapons can only see and target objects out to 5000. It appears to be assumed that visual contact overrides sensors; Skaraans that are hidden by LowVis can still be seen on the Mainscreen even if they don't appear on Weapons, and Stealth hides the ship from LRS and Tac, but (IIRC) they still appear on Weapons and Helm.

I've never actually checked if a Cloaked ship actually disappears from the Mainscreen, but it's my guess and from the conversation I'd say it doesn't. So it makes sense that the ship can actually be seen, but it is the TARGETING SCANNERS that are jammed by the Cloak and thus a fighter shouldn't be able to target it just the same as the Weapons console.

I would actually be interested if fighters ignore LowVis as well. (They shouldn't)

Of course, it should be stated that in Star Trek, which is at least a primary inspiration for the game, cloaking devices are explicitly shown to hide the ship completely from visual detection, as well as detection by all known sensor technology. Which is not to say that Artemis technology can't be different.

Xavier Wise

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Reply with quote  #17 
Cloaked vessels are invisible on the Mainscreen. A cloaked vessel will disappear in a puff of green sparks (its how you can tell if it was destroyed or not).

As shuttles automatically lock targets within their line of sight, they automatically lock onto a cloaked vessel. I believe that is because the cloaked vessel is still there, just invisible. This also explains why you can stay locked on and tracking a selected ship on the captain's map and science console after the ship has cloaked.

Personally, I wouldn't want to see manual fire able to "lock on" to a cloaked ship. It would just mean you lock a ship that has the possibility of cloaking, and then shoot until it is destroyed. It would almost make the cloak obsolete. I agree with notsabbat that the fact that shuttles can lock on to cloaked ships is probably a bug.

If you were able to "free-fire" the primary beams in manual mode, then potentially you could coordinate with a science officer if they remained locked. By "free-fire" I mean being able to just go to manual targeting, use arrow keys to rotate the guncam view and then use the mouse click on screen to fire the beams. In manual then, a Science officer would give you angle and distance and weapons could rotate the gun cam to that facing and click the view to fire. You'd be firing blind, but it would be a very "star trek" moment, where you're searching for that tiny shimmer against space. 

As for the diagram at the bottom, more than one player has been caught out by that and I know many new players find it tricky to figure out. For those regular and experienced weapons officers, the diagram and reading it becomes second nature, but for the less experienced and new players, it isn't intuitive. Having a mini view of the "normal" weapons console radar view would be cool, especially if you could use it to quickly switch targets. It would make weapons more interesting instead of just clicking like mad in manual, or waiting for auto beams to do their thing. It might also fit with the free-fire idea, so that weapons rotates the view and this is shown as a cone on the mini-radar so you know where you are looking and what the targets are in front of you. 

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryleyra


I've never actually checked if a Cloaked ship actually disappears from the Mainscreen, but it's my guess and from the conversation I'd say it doesn't. So it makes sense that the ship can actually be seen, but it is the TARGETING SCANNERS that are jammed by the Cloak and thus a fighter shouldn't be able to target it just the same as the Weapons console.

I would actually be interested if fighters ignore LowVis as well. (They shouldn't)

Of course, it should be stated that in Star Trek, which is at least a primary inspiration for the game, cloaking devices are explicitly shown to hide the ship completely from visual detection, as well as detection by all known sensor technology. Which is not to say that Artemis technology can't be different.



I can confirm that cloak also visually hides it on the main screen and from the vision of players in fighters. They can still be acquired by fighters by means of apparently locking onto open space, though. Regarding the Star Trek cloak inspiration, torpedoes can already home in dumb-fire on cloaked targets, much as in Undiscovered Country's "it's gotta have a tailpipe" analogy. Can't see it, can't detect it on normal sensors, can't lock onto it, but you can smell it and shoot at the most recent emissions; a possible lore justification for torpedoes and fighters (and manual beams in the future?) being able to sniff them out.

I can't say for sure whether Fighters ignore LowVis, either. But I've logged considerable time in them, and I've never had an occasion where Science said something was ahead of me less than 7500 meters and I couldn't see it (or in the case of a cloaked ship, couldn't see my weapons lock onto empty space). My anecdotal experiences aren't proof, but I would put forward that Fighters do ignore LowVis.



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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xavier Wise

If you were able to "free-fire" the primary beams in manual mode, then potentially you could coordinate with a science officer if they remained locked. By "free-fire" I mean being able to just go to manual targeting, use arrow keys to rotate the guncam view and then use the mouse click on screen to fire the beams. In manual then, a Science officer would give you angle and distance and weapons could rotate the gun cam to that facing and click the view to fire. You'd be firing blind, but it would be a very "star trek" moment, where you're searching for that tiny shimmer against space. 

As for the diagram at the bottom, more than one player has been caught out by that and I know many new players find it tricky to figure out. For those regular and experienced weapons officers, the diagram and reading it becomes second nature, but for the less experienced and new players, it isn't intuitive. Having a mini view of the "normal" weapons console radar view would be cool, especially if you could use it to quickly switch targets. It would make weapons more interesting instead of just clicking like mad in manual, or waiting for auto beams to do their thing. It might also fit with the free-fire idea, so that weapons rotates the view and this is shown as a cone on the mini-radar so you know where you are looking and what the targets are in front of you. 


Excellent thoughts from Xavier, here.

I'd like to be able to reacquire a disrupted lock-on by switching to manual, but as I mentioned before the ability to simply dumb-fire beams (or free-fire, as Xavier puts it) would be an entirely acceptable alternative, and would also promote more of the key gameplay of Artemis: the crew's interdependence and need for communication. 

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Xavier Wise

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Reply with quote  #20 
LowVis affects normal weapons "radar" view and the helm console. It doesn't affect science, captain's map or visuals (mainscreen, observer or fighter visuals).
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ryleyra

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xavier Wise
Cloaked vessels are invisible on the Mainscreen. A cloaked vessel will disappear in a puff of green sparks (its how you can tell if it was destroyed or not).

As shuttles automatically lock targets within their line of sight, they automatically lock onto a cloaked vessel. I believe that is because the cloaked vessel is still there, just invisible. This also explains why you can stay locked on and tracking a selected ship on the captain's map and science console after the ship has cloaked.


Okay, that sounds like a bug. You should not be able to lock onto a ship you can't see, even firing blind. I'll note, however, that missiles on fighters are always dumb fired, and if they lock onto a cloaked ship that would be a nod to the "tailpipe" analogy.  

Quote:

By "free-fire" I mean being able to just go to manual targeting, use arrow keys to rotate the guncam view and then use the mouse click on screen to fire the beams.


Agreed on this, and on not just being able to manual target a ship and keep firing at it even after it cloaks.

Quote:

Having a mini view of the "normal" weapons console radar view would be cool, especially if you could use it to quickly switch targets. 


Agreed on this, too. I said above that you could have the standard display with an overlay pointing to the target that shows the "zoom in". This would be the opposite, your magnified view, with a small window next to it showing the overhead view. It could just be the current view of the firing arcs, just with more of the area around it visible.

It says something that I don't even know if another ship can get between you and the target while in Manual Mode. But I assume if not, you wouldn't want that ship interfering in your shot, which it would, if you're displaying multiple ships. However, I don't think the firing arc display needs to show only the target ship, and I'm pretty sure that right now it does. Just showing all the ships in the arc would be a step in the right direction.

ryleyra

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xavier Wise
LowVis affects normal weapons "radar" view and the helm console. It doesn't affect science, captain's map or visuals (mainscreen, observer or fighter visuals).


Yeah. My take is that there are four types of sensors:

1) Targetting Scanners - 5000 range, jammed by LowVis (reducing it to 2500) and Cloak
    - displayed by Helm and Weapons
2) Visual/Short Range - 7500 range, jammed by Cloak only (now that I know that)
    - displayed by Mainscreen, Observer and Fighter visual
3) Long Range Sensors, Passive - range set by Sensors setting, jammed by Stealth and Cloak
    - displayed by LRS, TAC (even though TAC is limited, it behaves like LRS)
4) Long Range Sensors, Active - range set by Sensors setting, jammed by Cloak (and the now obsolete InvisToSci)
    - displayed by Science, Captain's Map

Also, it might be interesting if a fighter did lock onto a cloaked ship, but Thom simply made it so the reticle doesn't appear. A pilot "firing blind", though, would suddenly find himself able to fire at a target that he can't see. It would be a bit of a cheat, since the beam would lock on to the cloaked ship and not literally be firing blind, but the pilot would have no clue that it's possible except by just clicking the fire button repeatedly.

Weapons could do the same with Manual Targeting, but only if the scanners are not locked onto anything. Besides, if you can't see the ship, you shouldn't be able to see its subsystem points. 😃 All you're getting is the ability to fire at the ship.

LawsonThompson

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by U.E. Admiral
A
... However, there is also the problem of making our fingers tired or wearing out our mouse while we weapons officers click or tap as fast as we can to avoid missing an opportunity to fire.
... 

Additionally, for added functionality of a Multiple Target Acquisition capability, I would like to Right-Click (or touchscreen "gesture" equivalent) to change target to another vessel in view on the manual scope. The current functionality of getting kicked out of manual scope after a target is destroyed is problematic, particularly when combined with the practice of spamming the mouse button to fire beams to work around the broken beam recharge UI element. It is very easy and quite common to be shooting a hostile ship, have that ship blow up, inadvertently target another ship, and start shooting at it within the span of a third to one-half of a second. This makes it very easy to target and fire upon friendlies or biomechs before realizing anything changed.

Right-click isn't bound to any actions at current, and would be a suitable input to re-center the scope view on the selected target in view (or even serve as Xavier's proposed free-floating "turret" behavior).
...


These are a couple of my issues with manual targeting too.

I have rarely used the manual targeting, but think the idea of having the manual fire require a tap to lock a position, THEN a tap on a "FIRE" button to actually fire would take care of both the "accidental fire" situation and the "click-wear" issue. The FIRE button would essentially be a toggle "fire on/off" and would fire as quickly as possible when "ON".



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U.E. Admiral

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Reply with quote  #24 
I see we all agree on the notion of the weapons officer being able to adjust angle on the guncam view and free-fire without need of a target lock. This could very well be used to the effect of my wish for Multiple Target Acquisition on page 1.

Without a target lock, we'd just have a way to manually change the view angle (maybe WASD like the fighter, or maybe a right-click-and-drag). In contrast, with a target lock we would retain the existing function that a target lock centers the guncam view, so weapons officers wouldn't need to manually rotate their view to track that target. In addition to that, there'd just be free fire in the area around it, able to acquire drones or other ships on-the-fly along that visual angle, which would still be reduced compared to main screen or the usual weapons top-down view.

I can definitely confirm also that currently once you're locked onto a target in manual mode, nothing can interrupt your view of that vessel, even by being positioned directly between the player ship and the target. Were this to change, and all ships / objects showed up on that view, blocked shots would be an undesirable outcome for some reasons; however, it wouldn't necessarily be entirely unrealistic (and also consistent with the Star Trek inspiration; ships often interceded themselves to obstruct firing angle to an object they were protecting). It could also stand to address presently existing problems of players sometimes wondering why their beams won't fire despite the top-down screen showing they have a clear line of fire, but really an asteroid is *just* in the way. Relative to other ships blocking the line of fire, players can always climb or dive on the plane to reacquire a firing angle on the desired target.

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ryleyra

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Reply with quote  #25 
Don't forget that with WASD controls assigned to Weapons, it will no longer be possible to control the Helm console at the same time, with those keys. Then again, that may not be as attractive a feature as it once was, since we have fighters to satisfy the need for a single seat craft.

I like the idea of onscreen controls, with keyboard or click and drag being a backup interface. Those controls would be non-functional if the targeting is locked on, unless we want to eliminate the "click on the point to shoot" interface entirely.
notsabbat

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Reply with quote  #26 
Having a "Target closest" "Target next" "Target previous" like the science station could be cool. May be easier to implement as well.




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ryleyra

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Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by notsabbat
Having a "Target closest" "Target next" "Target previous" like the science station could be cool. May be easier to implement as well.


I would think that would invalidate the purpose of having manual control over the aim.

However, while in "locked on" mode, the rotation controls could select next and previous target. (Or next target to right/left) While the argument has been made that this could make Weapons "too easy", I'll note Star Trek: Bridge Crew implements this on the TOS Enterprise. And that's supposed to make it HARDER than clicking on the target. 😉

Certainly you should not be able to "fire blind" on a cloaked ship by using "Next Target/Previous Target". It should only target ships you can see, leaving manual control for the "fire blind" setting.

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Reply with quote  #28 
I'm not sure a Nearest/Next/Last Target selection option would invalidate the purpose of manual control of the aim. It would certainly have a place on the standard auto-beams view, as often enough enemy ships are clustered so close together it can be difficult to click the one you want, even on Zoom 1. However, this is not a feature I would care much about.

Otherwise, I'm in complete agreement with Ryleyra's last couple posts.

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ron77

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Reply with quote  #29 
To tell you the truth, I've never really been a fan of the way Manual Targeting was implimented. It reduced situational awareness to zero and there was nothing to fire at besides propulsion and weapons. Furthermore, it made the weapons systems seem like a sledge hammer rather than a scalpel; taking out individual systems on enemy (player as well as AI) ships was never a particularly viable option, instead you just missed the sweet spot between crippling a ship and destroying it.

If it were up to me, I'd envision two possible "fixes":
  1. Keep some sort of view scope, but include more targets to fire at. Engineering has a long list of systems that can break, why can't they break because they're being shot at?
  2. When turning off Auto Targetting, display a list of different ship systems to fire at (like above). Manual Targetting would no longer involve a view scope but would simply allow the weapons officer to select whatever system he would like to target and then automatically fire at this system only until told otherwise.
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Reply with quote  #30 
Now that you mention it, I wouldn't mind the ability to take out an enemy's drone launcher as a subsystem. That would be pretty nice.
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