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planedonut

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Reply with quote  #1 
I'm a programmer who has begun tinkering with Artemis, specifically mission scripts.

I understand that the x-axis and z-axis coordinates describe the 2D plane (left/right/forward/backward) and I also understand that the y-axis describes above and below the plane, to give the simulation 3D aspects. There are a few concepts I am wondering about though.

#1) Are there 100,000 units in the y plane? And would y = 0 be at the bottom, middle or top of the plane? (basically do y-units go from 0-100,000 like x and z do or are there negative units)

#2) I think I read in a few places that objects previously had no regard for the y-axis. Did I read that correctly, and is that still the case? Ex: even if a mine were placed somewhere far above or below a ship, it will still detonate if the ship enters its x and z coordinates.

#3) Finally, it seems the ship can only ascend and descend to a certain extent. In my brief play test of helm, you seem to only be able to tilt up or down to a certain level before you can only stay neutral or tilt the opposite direction. Is this a specific number of units? Does this vary ship to ship? If mines or enemy ships are placed too high or low for you (or an enemy ship) to reach thru ascent/descent, are they unreachable for that simulation? (That question sortve hinges on whether or not you really are limited to how much you can ascend/descend).

Thanks for anyone who can provide any info to these questions! 
Darrin

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Reply with quote  #2 
Quote:
Originally Posted by planedonut

#1) Are there 100,000 units in the y plane? And would y = 0 be at the bottom, middle or top of the plane? (basically do y-units go from 0-100,000 like x and z do or are there negative units)


The y-axis extends 100,000 units both above and below the x-z plane (technically units = "meters", although this term/distance is fungible to some extent). As I understand it, the orientation of the x/y/z coordinates is a hold-over from flight-sim games, where this arrangement is considered the industry "standard" of sorts.

So, yes, the "playing field" is actually larger vertically than horizontally, although most of this extra space is wasted because the player ships are restricted to about +600 to -600 of the y-axis. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by planedonut

#2) I think I read in a few places that objects previously had no regard for the y-axis. Did I read that correctly, and is that still the case? Ex: even if a mine were placed somewhere far above or below a ship, it will still detonate if the ship enters its x and z coordinates.


Objects do pay attention to the y-axis. When you're detecting distance between objects, the game does look at the y-axis, so you're usually checking distance to an object within a sphere with a particular radius that extends into the x/y/z axes. Mines detect ships within 500 units (meters), but it is possible to fly "under" or "over" them with a player ship if the mines are set at y-axis = 0 and you ascend or descend far enough in the y-axis to get outside of that 500-unit sphere. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by planedonut

#3) Finally, it seems the ship can only ascend and descend to a certain extent. In my brief play test of helm, you seem to only be able to tilt up or down to a certain level before you can only stay neutral or tilt the opposite direction. Is this a specific number of units? Does this vary ship to ship? If mines or enemy ships are placed too high or low for you (or an enemy ship) to reach thru ascent/descent, are they unreachable for that simulation? (That question sortve hinges on whether or not you really are limited to how much you can ascend/descend).


I don't recall the exact upper or lower limit for player ships... I think it's somewhere around 600 or 750 units above or below y = 0? (I've written a few scripts where I had to test whether the player could fly underneath a minefield, if they were so inclined.) It's enough that you can scoot underneath or over a mine set at y = 0 with a 500-unit detection radius. As far as I know, this limit is the same for all player ships. (There is an exception, which I'll get to in a bit.)

If you place objects above or below the 600-unit limit for player ships, then those objects generally won't be accessible to the player ship (such as bases for docking or upgrade anomalies), although they will still display on the LRS or Science screen. Enemy ships or monsters set very high or very low will still follow brain stack and pathfinding, but I'm not entirely sure how quickly they rise or sink on the y-axis. If they have weapons in range, they will fire on the player ships and behave normally. 

Sometimes you can try to hide an object underneath another object by creating it at the same x/z coordinates as another object but setting the y coordinate to a negative number. It's difficult to hide it entirely, though... both objects will show up overlapping on the Science screen, and it's difficult to predict which object Science will actually be considered "on top" and thus scannable (or not scannable) by Science. You can also try to hide objects from the player ship by setting scanner distance to a certain value (such as 33K) and loading an object at the very top or bottom of the y-axis. It doesn't always work... for example, enemy ships will always show up on the weapons/science screen within a certain horizontal distance from the player ship even if they are above/below the sensor range on the y-axis. 

Exception: Shuttles and fighters are not restricted on the y-axis. They can fly up or down to the limits of the entire play area. So if you did place an object too high or too low for a player ship to interact with it, a fighter might be able to reach it. So far, I'm not sure if I've seen any mission scripts take advantage of this, where you have to use a shuttle to reach a station/object out of reach of the player ship. 




planedonut

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Reply with quote  #3 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrin




Great, that is valuable info! Thank you!

I guess I was assuming that enemy ships would only be able to ascend/descend to the extent that the player could but it makes sense that they can pathfind to any y coordinate from and y coordinate. 

Again, thank you for all that. It makes a lot of sense now.
ryleyra

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Reply with quote  #4 
The player ship range is -500 to 500. If placed outside of that range at creation time, the ship will be moved to either -500 or 500, whichever is closest. Enemy ships or anything else that is able to move will naturally gravitate towards 0 (or the player ship) over time.

Note that -500 to 500 is 1000 units, so there is plenty of room to fly under or over a mine, IF it is placed anywhere but the 0 y coordinate. I remember seeing one script where there was a "hole" in a minefield that you could fly through, if you knew where it was. Also, this may have changed in more recent releases of the game, which may explain why Darrin was able to fly above or below a mine placed at 0. (Or, it could simply have been at 500 units range, which is just at the range at which a mine detonates)

I never tried to place a base outside of the -500 to 500 range, so I can't be sure, but my guess is that it would be restricted to that range as well, since it would be useless to have a base the player ship couldn't get to. As noted, other objects like generic meshes, nebulas, asteroids and black holes CAN be placed above or below the playing field. Such objects could only be reached by a shuttle or fighter. (In the case of an anomaly, this would make the shuttle necessary to retrieve it!)

Finally, I'll note that since ranges are calculated as a sphere from the center point, so it is also possible to avoid a mine by flying above or below and to one side of it. Many scripts create minefields by stacking mines at 0, 250, and -250. (So the "hole" described above was created by leaving out the mine at -250 in one or two spots, and you flew "between" the mines)
NoseyNick

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Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
technically units = "meters"


[citation needed]   [wink]

Seriously though, Has Thom or anyone "official" ever definitively stated that units = meters?
Darrin

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Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoseyNick


[citation needed]   [wink]

Seriously though, Has Thom or anyone "official" ever definitively stated that units = meters?


From artemis.ini file:

; SETTING: stationSensorRange
; USE: how many meters away can a station detect an enemy?
; ACCEPTABLE: 5000 to 100000
stationSensorRange=50000

; SETTING: playerSensorRange
; USE: how many meters away can a player detect an enemy?
; ACCEPTABLE: 5000 to 100000
playerSensorRange=50000


NoseyNick

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Reply with quote  #7 
Excellent! Thanks!   [redface] [thumb]
davidtrinh

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Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by planedonut
I'm a programmer who has begun tinkering with Artemis, specifically mission scripts.

I understand that the x-axis and z-axis coordinates describe the 2D plane (left/right/forward/backward) and I also understand that the y-axis describes above and below the plane, to give the simulation 3D aspects. There are a few concepts I am wondering about though.

#1) Are there 100,000 units in the y plane? And would y = 0 be at the bottom, middle or top of the plane? (basically do y-units go from 0-100,000 like x and z do or are there negative units)

#2) I think I read in a few places that objects previously had no regard for the y-axis. Did I read that correctly, and is that still the case? Ex: even if a mine were placed somewhere far above or below a ship, it will still detonate if the ship enters its x and z coordinates.

#3) Finally, it seems the ship can only ascend and descend to a certain extent. In my brief play test of helm, you seem to only be able to tilt up or down to a certain level before you can only stay neutral or tilt the opposite direction. Is this a specific number of units? Does this vary ship to ship? If mines or enemy ships are placed too high or low for you (or an enemy ship) to reach thru ascent/descent, are they unreachable for that simulation? (That question sortve hinges on whether or not you really are limited to how much you can ascend/descend).

Thanks for anyone who can provide any info to these questions! 


You're right! Plus minus 500 for the Y-Axis for main ship, however fighter jets can go 100,000 plus minus to pick up stuff. At times, bio-mechs may engage hostiles well above or below 500. Your ordnance will only travel 5,200 distance units.

I was inspired by Commodore Lawson and made this video for our Terran Stellar Naval Academy classes.


Good luck and have fun building missions.

Dave
Mike Substelny

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoseyNick


[citation needed]   [wink]

Seriously though, Has Thom or anyone "official" ever definitively stated that units = meters?


Yes, Thom refers to the distance units as meters. As a hard science fiction guy that drives me crazy but I must live with it. Just remember that the game mechanics of the Artemis universe are impossible to reconcile with our universe and you will be fine.

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"The Admiralty had demanded six ships; the economists offered four; and we finally compromised on eight."
- Winston Churchill
ryleyra

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Reply with quote  #10 
Keep in mind that most games, particularly 3D modeling games, define coordinates in terms of "meters" for convenience's sake. "Meters" allows you to scale your models to a consistent height and width. As an example, I believe I heard that Conan Exiles scales their "meters" to 2.5 meters. So their building blocks are 2.5 meters square, but in game terms it's 1 meter.

It's also true that the scale of distance is not necessarily the same as the object modelling scale. If a sector was 2 AU across, and the Artemis was 100 meters across, it would be a miniscule speck on the screen. Either a sector is 100 kilometers across, or the sector is in a different scale from the 3D objects.

Personally, I call them "units", and consider the object scale to be 1.3 meters per unit, and the sector scale to be whatever you want it to be. In fact, I think the scale of distance would work best if it is logarithmic. (So beam range is on a smaller scale than Warp travel)
davidtrinh

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Reply with quote  #11 
I continue to refer to it in our Academy script training videos as distance units given the ambiguity of scale to date. The kids who are taking the courses aren't even aware of this ongoing concern. Please don't kick me off the forum for continuing to do this Mike. Once again, I was inspired by LawsonThompson who made a training video a few weeks ago which can be found here.
artemis.forumchitchat.com/post/2019-artemis-newbie-training-video-sample-10255334

davidtrinh

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Reply with quote  #12 
Me: I told my therapist yesterday I am petrified of that axis.

Therapist: Why?

Me: ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh..............


Mike Substelny

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidtrinh
Me: I told my therapist yesterday I am petrified of that axis.

Therapist: Why?

Me: ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh..............




LOL! That's just plane irrational. [cool]

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"The Admiralty had demanded six ships; the economists offered four; and we finally compromised on eight."
- Winston Churchill
e4mafia

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Reply with quote  #14 
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