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dwainedwibly

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Reply with quote  #16 
Thanks for all the help on this one, means ive got a PVP mission for UK Game Expo. Admitally its a PvP that plays more like an Olympics with some direct PvP at the end.
Mike Substelny

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Reply with quote  #17 
Good luck, DwaineDwibly.

For the record, the mission script for Phoenix Comicon is done and it makes great use of Ryley's trick. The trick DOES WORK and players never notice the momentary change of sides as Comms buttons spawn. But AI ships do notice the change and will fire at the player ship, so it's a good idea to have friendly AIs far away when you spawn buttons to Comms.

If this happens at Phoenix Comicon I will have the Game Master explain that the sector recently got a shipment of faulty torpedoes that sometimes go wild and attack friendly ships.

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ryleyra

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Substelny

If this happens at Phoenix Comicon I will have the Game Master explain that the sector recently got a shipment of faulty torpedoes that sometimes go wild and attack friendly ships.


Heeheehee.

I think the trick should work fine for a small selection of buttons, but if you have a complex menu being refreshed every couple of minutes with buttons replacing other buttons it'll be hard to keep the AI ships from being in the area when the side switch happens. So it's a limited workaround, but it should tide the players over until the buttons can be spawned by players.

And it should be possible to respond to a single ship, because IIRC the GM can do it. Maybe there's a trick to it that only works for the GM, but hopefully Thom can come up with a permanent solution.

Gryphon

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Reply with quote  #19 
Why do player vessels with the same side_value automatically show up on each others' sensors regardless of sensor range setting? Could a Comms button be made that toggles this function on and off, so that a player ship can "appear" and "disappear" on the sensor screens of all other player ships when out of the GM's preset sensor range for the scenario, thereby creating a limited, range-dependent form of PvP cloaking device and giving Comms a major role in the exploitation of "fog of war" tactics?

If this could be accomplished, a decent PvP pirates-vs-TSN cat & mouse game could be created with all player ships having side_value=1.

Also, how do the brain stacks of unarmed AIs like freighters and science vessels differ from the brain stacks of AI warships? Specifically, can freighters be set to flee from an attacking player ship with the same side_value?

ryleyra

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryphon
Why do player vessels with the same side_value automatically show up on each others' sensors regardless of sensor range setting?


Because those ships are on the same side. Ships on the same side share sensor information with each other, as do bases and AI controlled ships on a particular side.

The bigger issue is why ships on DIFFERENT sides share sensor data with each other. I assume this is a bug, since I would expect this to be required behavior in PvP. IIRC, all players can also see other players' status on the Science screen even if they are on different sides. This should probably be changed, with player ships on different sides needed to scan each other before they can see such things as shield strength and internal damage.

Quote:

Could a Comms button be made that toggles this function on and off, so that a player ship can "appear" and "disappear" on the sensor screens of all other player ships when out of the GM's preset sensor range for the scenario, thereby creating a limited, range-dependent form of PvP cloaking device and giving Comms a major role in the exploitation of "fog of war" tactics?


I don't see any way this could be done while leaving the sideValue intact. It COULD be done by using Comms to change the ship's sideValue, much like my trick of using sideValue to allow you to add Comms buttons to a specific ship. The Comms button would just set the sideValue instead of setting sideValue before adding the button.

This would effect AI ships the same way my Comms button trick does, though. The only way you could make the AI neutral to both ships would be to clear their AI stack and not give them any AI commands that make reference to sideValue. Otherwise, AI that was friendly to the "uncloaked" ship would become hostile to the cloaked ship, and any AI assigned the sideValue the cloaked ship is switching to would become friendly. (Enemy ships are usually assigned side 1, though, players would be on sides 2 and 3)

Quote:

If this could be accomplished, a decent PvP pirates-vs-TSN cat & mouse game could be created with all player ships having side_value=1.


I don't see why TSN can't be side 2 and Pirates can't be side 3. Do you want the freighters to be allies to the Pirates and follow their orders? Or do you want the TSN and Pirates to be able to dock at the same base?

Quote:

Also, how do the brain stacks of unarmed AIs like freighters and science vessels differ from the brain stacks of AI warships? Specifically, can freighters be set to flee from an attacking player ship with the same side_value?


I took notes on this, so here are the brain stacks used in Invasion modes.


Enemy Brain Stack - Solo Siege

TRY_TO_BECOME_LEADER
CHASE_PLAYER 0 0
CHASE_STATION 0
CHASE_AI_SHIP 3000 500
CHASE_PLAYER 3000 500
CHASE_ANGER
LEADER_LEADS
FOLLOW_LEADER

Unarmed Ally Brain Stack

POINT_THROTTLE 62502 0 47496 1
FOLLOW_COMMS_ORDERS

Armed Ally Brain Stack

POINT_THROTTLE 62502 0 47496 1
CHASE_AI_SHIP 3000 500
FOLLOW_COMMS_ORDERS
DEFEND 1000 3000
CHASE_ANGER

As you can see, unarmed ally ships just fly to the given point and follow Comms orders. You can't really make an ally "flee" from a given ship, just tell it to move as fast as it can in a given direction.

IIRC, in scripts all ships are given the enemy AI stack. So you have explicitly reprogram all friendly ships anyway. This has been true since 2.3, where something about fighter AI made this necessary. To make an armed ally neutral, just turn off CHASE_AI_SHIP and FOLLOW_COMMS_ORDERS. (And DEFEND, which only functions with FOLLOW_COMMS_ORDERS anyway) It will just follow the path given it, and attack any ship not on the same side which attacks it. (So it would be set to a fourth side)
Gryphon

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Reply with quote  #21 
I don't code, so please forgive me if this is an ignorant question, but why do ships on the same side automatically share sensor information? Is this a necessary function for Artemis to run, or could it be altered or made optional?
ryleyra

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryphon
I don't code, so please forgive me if this is an ignorant question, but why do ships on the same side automatically share sensor information? Is this a necessary function for Artemis to run, or could it be altered or made optional?


Well, first of all, let me clarify that sideValue is how side is declared in PvP. I am assuming that side 1 is sideValue=1, side 2 is sideValue=2, and so on. In Solo and Co-Op mode, side 1 is the enemy, but PvP has no enemy side, so I assume it's free to be used by the first player side. (If not, side 1 can be sideValue=2, side 2 can be sideValue=3 and so on)

I guess my question is, why do you NOT want ships on the same side to share sensor information? By definition, ships on the same side are friendly to each other. You, as the player ship, have the capability to "see through" the sensors of the bases and friendly ships in the sector, thus extending your own sensor range. This is the way the game has been designed since limited sensor range was implemented.

Presumably, if you were to turn this feature off, you would be limited to the radius around your ship. You would not be able to see anything else in the sector, unless you assume bases and terrain features are already marked on the map, and friendly ships issue a beacon marking their position. But you would not be able to see enemies attacking bases that are outside of your scan radius, or use Comms to direct friendly ships into an area in order to scan it.

Multi-ship games also wouldn't be able to use Scouts or similar ships to go into an area to scan it. And each ship would have to scan the sector separately. (Although that might make more work for Science) 

ryleyra

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Reply with quote  #23 
I'll add that if you want to create an object (say, a derelict ship) that can't be found by sensors, you SHOULD be able to set it to sideValue=4 and clear its AI stack. When the ship gets within scan range of the derelict, change its sideValue to match the player.

Instances in which that doesn't work is where the bug comes in.

Alternately, just don't create the derelict until the ship gets in range.

Also, you can turn off or reduce sensor range for allied ships and bases, but you have to edit it in artemis.ini, which means it can't be edited for just a single ship, and you'll have to edit artemis.ini to change it back. But if you want to test out Artemis with only the ship's own sensors, you can do that.

Mike Substelny

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryphon
I don't code, so please forgive me if this is an ignorant question, but why do ships on the same side automatically share sensor information? Is this a necessary function for Artemis to run, or could it be altered or made optional?


This was a choice made by Thom. I don't think people complain about it much, though. I believe 99% of Artemis players always play with SENSORS = UNLIMITED. By allowing limited sensors Thom built the possibility of a little bit of Fog of War into the game but since it is so seldom used its flaws are hardly ever exposed.

If multiple side values and limited sensors start to be used by lots of players then these issues are likely to get Thom's attention.

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k9lego

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Substelny


This was a choice made by Thom. I don't think people complain about it much, though. I believe 99% of Artemis players always play with SENSORS = UNLIMITED. By allowing limited sensors Thom built the possibility of a little bit of Fog of War into the game but since it is so seldom used its flaws are hardly ever exposed.

If multiple side values and limited sensors start to be used by lots of players then these issues are likely to get Thom's attention.

I feel it makes sense though that ships on the same side share sensor information. I mean can you imagine any Armada of ships not sharing with each other what they see? Of corse this is assuming they have some sort of data channel or electronic communication frequency opened between ships on the same side. Because Comms isn't manually adding the ships positions to science. Then the question of data encryption is raised. Can the enemies spy on the hypothetical data channel between ships on the same side?
Edit: Hmmm, switching channels and managing encryption technology might be an interesting additional job for Comms. [smile]
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