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Stonefish

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmlBaconStraps
I haven't done much playing around with adding games to steam manually, but shouldn't steam pick up on the fact that you're adding a steam game?


There are only a handful of titles in the world that you can buy outside of Steam and then register inside of Steam to receive the Steam version thereof.  Basically just everything Valve ever released in a box, plus one or two other things they did licensing deals on for some reason.

Outside of that unlikely option, if you add your FastSpring version to Steam, it's nothing more than a shortcut.  You can run the Steam overlay if it works, but that's about it for integration.
Sophism

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonefish
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmlBaconStraps
I haven't done much playing around with adding games to steam manually, but shouldn't steam pick up on the fact that you're adding a steam game?


There are only a handful of titles in the world that you can buy outside of Steam and then register inside of Steam to receive the Steam version thereof.  Basically just everything Valve ever released in a box, plus one or two other things they did licensing deals on for some reason.

Outside of that unlikely option, if you add your FastSpring version to Steam, it's nothing more than a shortcut.  You can run the Steam overlay if it works, but that's about it for integration.
This is not accurate.  Most games that use Steamworks can be redeemed on Steam, or Valve will provide the developer with codes to redeem the games on Steam.

Check all of the Humble Bundles to see how many of them give you a DRM-free copy of the game and a Steam code.  Here's a list of the ones that every serial number can be redeemed on Steam: https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=7480-wusf-3601. There are more games than that which have developer-provided Steam codes, but those are just the ones that are all usable on Steam.
NeonGreenLight

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophism
This is not accurate.  Most games that use Steamworks can be redeemed on Steam, or Valve will provide the developer with codes to redeem the games on Steam.

Check all of the Humble Bundles to see how many of them give you a DRM-free copy of the game and a Steam code.  Here's a list of the ones that every serial number can be redeemed on Steam: https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=7480-wusf-3601. There are more games than that which have developer-provided Steam codes, but those are just the ones that are all usable on Steam.


Stonefish is technically correct (the best kind of correct).  There are very few games which you can purchase and play on their own and then enter the CD key / license key into Steam and own it through Steam as well (just the ones in the list you linked).  Furthermore, the "Add a Non-Steam Game to My Library" option is indeed basically just a shortcut.

When you purchase a Steamworks game, you purchase a Steam code for the game and (optionally) a CD with most of the game data.  You do not receive a separate functional copy of the game.

When you purchase a Humble Bundle, you purchase two (or more) copies of the game: one DRM free copy, and one copy as a Steam code.  You cannot play the Steam version without Steam, and you cannot put the DRM-free version on Steam.  The versions may even differ in content.

Given that the current version of Artemis doesn't even use a license key, it won't be possible to add Artemis to Steam directly.  Instead, past purchasers would need to receive or obtain a Steam code if existing Artemis licenses were going to carry over to Steam.  Fortunately, I believe it's fairly easy for developers to obtain Steam keys for their own game to give out / sell through their site or the Humble Store / etc.
woodat

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Reply with quote  #19 
Here's a suggestion I don't think was mentioned:

Have the steam-installed copy of the game be able to create dedicated clones of itself.  In the initial startup window, have a button that says "create bridge crew client".  When that button is pressed, it will give a save-as dialogue box letting players choose a location to save a DRM-free copy of the game.  They could then save it to a thumb drive and take it to any of their alternate stations.

For security concerns, You could even design it to have these copy-clones have an expiration date or a requirement they can only connect to the original steam copy which created them through some unique generated key.

As far as I can tell, that may solve a fair bit of the concerns here

Stonefish

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Reply with quote  #20 
Or you could just sell $~7 copies of the game without the bridge license.
Saavedra

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Reply with quote  #21 
The heart of this problem is the DRM issue.  There is no way to get around having DRM with Steam, period, and Artemis has always been a DRM free game.  It would be a complete disaster to continue to offer a DRM free version on your website and continue to sell it on Steam.  Steam users would be understandably pissed off when they found out they could have gotten "more" for the same price when they later learn about buying through the website.  Any attempt to balance this by giving steam only extras such as voice chat would only be sticking it to whoever buys it on the website.  That is a route you just don't want to down.

It would not be unreasonable, therefore, to call 2.0 the last DRM free version and offer it with some kind of DRM from here on out.  It may be hard to manage that with the standalone version, so if this option were chosen, I wouldn't be surprised if all future versions of Artemis were Steam only.  Charge $7-$10 for it and do a 6 pack for $40.  But this option sucks, and that's because we can no longer have one person buy a bridge license for themselves and whatever 5 people they're playing with, and ask the people to uninstall it when you're done.  Everyone has to buy.

A better solution for consumers is to have separate applications for the server and the client.  Make the client completely free, and charge 40 bucks for the server.  The only problem here is whether or not it makes financial sense to Thom, and that would be hard to gauge.  Welcome to the era of people far removed from anyone who paid joining all internet servers of 36 people having mega pvp deathmatches.  Do any of those 36 people represent lost customers?  You could at least argue that $40 is no bigger of a barrier than it was for a crew before, and at least this situation provides "free advertising" for someone who might consider buying a server license for his friends.  Something to think about.
kutagh

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Reply with quote  #22 
May I point out something? On Steam a game can actually be released without Steam DRM, meaning that you can play a game even without Steam running. I have at least one game supporting this. As to how to implement this, you'd have to ask a Valve representative. But this means that Steam becomes mainly a download & update service, rather than actually being DRM. If you use Steam to download it though, you need to finalize installation before you can launch games this way.
A list of DRM free games
For example, I just started Faerie Solitaire through the executable in my Steam folder, Steam did not register the game as launching nor did the Steam Overlay activate. Yet if I start the game through Steam (an actual Steam game, not a shortcut), it shows up as me being ingame and the Steam overlay is active. 

Myself, I'd prefer a $40 server with free2play client licenses. This reflects the current intention of the server license the best and also makes the game more accessible: The people buying licenses effectively can sell the games to their friends. Once a license holder gets swamped or is not frequently online at the times his/her friends want to play, those friends will want to run another server and thus pay again for it. You do not have the barrier to play the game in terms of a financial investment and game buyers don't have to worry about people owning the game too so that they can play with others. This means that people aren't thinking "Do my friends already own it or can I convince them to buy it too?" but "If I buy this, can I get my friends to give it a try too?" which is a significantly lower barrier.
You are correct in that it means a higher initial investment cost for one individual, but if they are serious about it they can try to share the costs between them and friends, for example only playing with friends, maybe offering those that chip in a 'plus one' that they can invite to a round. 
It also means that there is much more room for discounts: If you sell the game in individual packs of $8 and drop the price to $4 or if you sell a server license for $40 and drop the price to $20, the latter is much more interesting to people. A price drop from $8 to $4 only means that you're grabbing a few impulse buys, people that think "ah well, it is cheap and looks interesting" and then get turned off when they see they have to play with other people and convince them to buy it too. Yet when it is priced at $40 for a server license, people that have been playing it with friends and enjoying it see that it is suddenly $20 and if they were thinking about buying it, this would move them to buy the license, plus a handful of impulse buys. 



Something I'd really like to know before I buy the current version is: Will I get a Steam key once the Steam version is live? 
Stonefish

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Posts: 62
Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saavedra
It would be a complete disaster to continue to offer a DRM free version on your website and continue to sell it on Steam.


This is demonstrably false.  Gog.com sells (some of) the same games for the same price as Steam, and none of their titles have DRM.  They co-exist in similar corners of the market, and I don't see that changing in the short term.
pupbrad

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Reply with quote  #24 
Im completely with stonefish here. Drm wouldnt destroy artemis. Also of need be, it could have steam be the downlowd and update the game instead of NEEDING to be launched and managed by steam. If we simply have the game be launched via an exe in the games folder then we can have multiple instances. As for the price barrier i dont think that 7 pr 8 dollars will be a problem at all when it comes to people buying it. We all sacrificed the same ammount individually for it and if need be, im sure we can have others join in with the demo that thom will likeyly do on steam.

Also, as for pricing, itd probably be more of a turnoff if they see a 40 dollar price tag ANYWHERE on the page as opposed to a normal copy that can still host being 8 or so dollars. As for updates like the 2.0 update, it could be released like dlc on steam and so on. All I know is if I could play the game for free or host a server for 40 dollars knpwing that one person would need to host the server for me to play and there being no server browser, Id be a ton more hesitant to get the game. Also, people would feel as though theyr buying an incomplete product (aparently is fine to most people considering the current practice of dlc in AAA games and the rise of f2p).

As for sale prices being impulse buys, as a veteran of steam I will actually buy only one or two games at all over the course of a year that arnt on sale on steam. I save the vast majority of money I have for the steam sales, so I buy games I think are cool that I wouldnt otherwise buy. I know as a fact I wouldnt have gotten Artemis on my own if it were 40 dollars for the server if I hadnt played it as much as I already have but if it were, say, 10 dollars, Id definately get it (now I wish I had enough money to buy it several times to help support Thom).

TL : DR
Artemis can coexist with steam rather easily if some simple steps that even more basic computer users can do are taken. Theres no need to freak out and say itl break it being available on both. Sales arnt useless and a single 10 (or lower) dollar price point is more appealing than seeing a 40 dollar price point and a free edition.

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"I am a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar." - Hoban Washburne
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Alexey_Andronov

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Reply with quote  #25 
Well, congratulations! Hope this brings more attention to the game because it deserves that!

On topic of selling Artemis, Thom, oh please do continue to sell Artemis outside of Steam, especially the bridge license. The Bridge License is very important for the way Artemis works - if you're the guy who hosts LAN parties or just gathers bunch of people at his place to have fun together, Bridge License is the best way to go - you don't have to pay five times, no other problems, you just pay once and enjoy it with whoever you want.

Same goes for the availability of normal (non-Steam) version. Forcing people to use Steam will KILL, absolutely KILL this game. I think you understand that. In order to set up a Steam game for LAN party, or for example a convention, I'd have to connect every computer to Steam, I'd have to own five (or six, btw what about server?) copies of the game, I'd have to own five(six) steam accounts, I'd have to turn all those into offline mode and pray they don't fail and dont say "oh sorry need to go online or no game for ya".... Yeah. Steam is only good fo PC, which is for Personal Computers. Personal as in "private, only yours to use".

As on working between steam and non-steam version, I hope Steam won't make you legally break compatibility, and if not, there's no reason not to. I hope you understand there is absolutely no need to separate your audience, making people who own steam and non-steam versions not being able to play with each other.

As for VOIP and other services - well, I don't think you can ever make it so a non-steam version of the game will support steam features, but IMHO this is not a game that really requires a built-in VOIP. I mean, what's built-in VOIP advantage over Skype or Mumble/Vent/TS3, really? It's only if you need to somehow make use of it ingame, like, display icons near characters who speak in 3D game world. Or if your players are very casual gamers who do not know or want to setup a VOIP client (or use skype) but want everything to be done for them by the "computer". Other than VOIP, everything else Artemis could do without. Achievements, really? Yeah.... or Workshop? All games with proper modding (like Skyrim) aren't based on Workshop but on normal 3-rd party sites like Nexus, just because Workshop is too generic and won't ever be good for any serious modding, only for simple stuff (or for taking people's content and selling it, like cosmetics in Dota 2 or CS:GO).

And yeah, right now you're selling to people who have... how should I say, quite a bit more IQ and logic and brain power than those you'll be selling on to Steam. So you should take a huge amount of (normally unnessecary) precaution so that people don't accidentaly buy your game and only then find out what it actually is. So people don't expect Star Trek Online or Star Trek Bridge Commander when they're buying Artemis.
Stonefish

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Reply with quote  #26 
The paranoia some people have...
Yes, you can sell games both here and there and have them net-compatible.
Yes, you can implement a voice-comms system that works on both sides without using steam hooks.
Yes, I want an achievement for breaking warp 4 using only impulse engines and a black hole [crazy]


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexey_Andronov
I mean, what's built-in VOIP advantage over Skype or Mumble/Vent/TS3, really? It's only if you need to somehow make use of it ingame

If an optional server browser gets implemented (and I expect it will.  You need that sort of functionality to co-ordinate the larger playerbase, lest you alienate them all three minutes after they buy in), then using TS3 that way will be a lot harder.  Still entirely feasible, but more of a pain to use.  Join a server, then ask around in (currently non-existent) text comms for the address of their teamspeak server, then alt-tab out and connect and hope it works while you're in the middle of getting shot at?  No thank-you.
Integrated comms means that each player automatically gets joined to the conversation, on the right team, instantly.  It means there's no drama getting kicked out of the TS server.  It means there's no hosting fees beyond the game server.  It means there's no running about trying to download server packages and forward ports just to get a twenty minute casual game going.  It means there is no licensing fee associated with running your own server (I believe TS caps out at 32 players on a free license, Ventrilo only supports 8.  Artemis theoretically does 48 or more)  It means if you want to get the comms station to hail friendly or enemy bridges, that's as simple as flipping a variable.

In summary, it'll take some work to implement, but if we're serious about appealing to a new segment of the market with this Steam thing, it's not really optional.
Captain

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Reply with quote  #27 
It will. Einteresting to see how this turns out. I think this will bring vpchanges good and ad but I don't have any comments besides asking what Igoing on with the process ifthom can comment.
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DrJT

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Reply with quote  #28 
Please keep a non-Steam version available.  I don't use Steam and don't want to. Steam would be a game killer for me.
colonel_kwalski

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Reply with quote  #29 
So, this game really has my interest. Currently I have no way to play it, most of my friends are  all about console games. I would love the chance to buy it and join with other online players. I have recenly discoverd this game, and if this is already possible let me know. If this game was on steam it would be a goldmine, tons of people who have never heard of this would love it. This game looks really special and if it ends up not going to steam there would be alot of dissipointed people like me.
pupbrad

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Reply with quote  #30 
It released on steam earlier today. $7. If you need someone to play with, go check out the community teamspeak and the Bridge Crew Comms section of the forums.

Community teamspeak is as follows:
artemis.teamspeak3.com
Artemis1

Anyways, congrats on getting it out on steam! This was one of the fastest greenlit to release times I've ever seen on games on steam! I can't get it this very moment, but should have the steam version as well in about a week or so.

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Captain of the USN Basroil.
"I am a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar." - Hoban Washburne
"Give me a ship to fly and I'll make it sit up and beg, roll over (but NEVER play dead), and even do the jitterbug if you so fancy." - Unknown
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