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Poll Results
 
 Should Players be able to fire sensor probes across the neutral zone?
 Yes, it's a valid use of probes. 9 75%
 No, a sensor probe seems like a treaty violation to me. 3 25%
Total votes: 12   Please or sign up to vote.


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Dave Thaler

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Substelny
I have just tested this with the Artemis 2.63 beta software. The results:
  • You can fire a probe across the neutral zone into enemy territory. This does not end the mission.
  • You cannot send a manned shuttle across the neutral zone. If a shuttle enters the neutral zone the players immediately lose.
I do not know if this is a bug or a feature. I will mention it to Thom on Wednesday. In the mean time, what do you think?


The manned shuttle behavior is certainly what I would expect. A ship is a ship.

Although my knowledge of probes is just what's been posted here in the forums, I could argue that that behavior is also expected if it's an unmanned ordnance.  Just like firing any other type of ordnance doesn't cause you to lose when it enters the neutral zone.   So I'd say he should leave it as is.  It gives players something else interesting to do before war is declared.
Mike Substelny

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Thaler


The manned shuttle behavior is certainly what I would expect. A ship is a ship.

Although my knowledge of probes is just what's been posted here in the forums, I could argue that that behavior is also expected if it's an unmanned ordnance.  Just like firing any other type of ordnance doesn't cause you to lose when it enters the neutral zone.   So I'd say he should leave it as is.  It gives players something else interesting to do before war is declared.


Last night I was not really playing a game - I was just running the whole bridge myself - but I found myself trying to bullseye an enemy base with a Probe from across the map. That could be a thing. If mission scripts could implement the neutral zone we could play a game like horseshoes or koob.

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ryleyra

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Substelny


Last night I was not really playing a game - I was just running the whole bridge myself - but I found myself trying to bullseye an enemy base with a Probe from across the map. That could be a thing. If mission scripts could implement the neutral zone we could play a game like horseshoes or koob.


I wrote a script which implements the "rules" of the neutral zone, but there's no way to make the graphic from the neutral zone mission appear on the sector map. I'd love a way to access that. In the meantime, as has been suggested you can "draw" a line with generic meshes.

You could also write a script that would let the shuttle cross that line but wouldn't let the player ship. (Actually, it would be easier to ALLOW single seat craft to cross the line than to PREVENT it, especially since you'd have to name the shuttle or fighters to trigger the war declaration)

In response to the poll, I would say that launching a probe into the neutral zone would pretty much be needed to map the terrain for an anticipated attack, on low sensor settings, but I would consider multiple breaches to be a violation of the treaty. So on the first probe launched have the enemy respond with a warning, followed by another warning after another couple of probes, followed by "If you launch a probe into the neutral zone again, we will declare war!" after a couple more. So 5 probe launches total will violate the treaty.

Obviously that's a bit complex to implement, so for now I think it's fine as is.

janx

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Substelny


I have just tested this with the Artemis 2.63 beta software. The results:
  • You can fire a probe across the neutral zone into enemy territory. This does not end the mission.
  • You cannot send a manned shuttle across the neutral zone. If a shuttle enters the neutral zone the players immediately lose.
I do not know if this is a bug or a feature. I will mention it to Thom on Wednesday. In the mean time, what do you think?


It's Thom's game, but anything hard impeding player action based on zone entry seems gamist, rather than simulationist.

In Star Trek, anybody/anything can cross the neutral zone.  That's not a limit.  The reaction for doing so might start a war.  Which again, isn't trigger happy automatic.  The Romulans show up, posture, and then maybe start a war.

So if somebody crosses the NZ and nobody's around to see it, it didn't happen.  Interesting coding would say it needs to be witnessed by one side or the other, then reported up the chain of command, then war starts as a declaration by the government.

AKA, you have X minutes to destroy the witness ship/monitoring station.  Or the players need to monitor their side of the NZ.  And Comms needs the power to report a NZ violation.


Mike Substelny

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by janx

So if somebody crosses the NZ and nobody's around to see it, it didn't happen.  Interesting coding would say it needs to be witnessed by one side or the other, then reported up the chain of command, then war starts as a declaration by the government.

AKA, you have X minutes to destroy the witness ship/monitoring station.  Or the players need to monitor their side of the NZ.  And Comms needs the power to report a NZ violation.


In the Border War scenario there are always lots of enemy ships and bases monitoring the Neutral Zone. The limit of AI sensors is never really established in the game. In practice it is the parameters of their brain stacks that simulate sensor range. Every AI brain stack can see ships & fighters but only an elite with anti-torp can see a torpedo.

I hadn't considered this before, but a player ship could lob limitless nukes across the neutral zone without triggering a war! That's kind of hilarious.

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ryleyra

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Substelny

I hadn't considered this before, but a player ship could lob limitless nukes across the neutral zone without triggering a war! That's kind of hilarious.


You could increase the speed of nukes in artemis.ini and try to actually win the game without entering the neutral zone.

Dave Thaler

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Substelny
I hadn't considered this before, but a player ship could lob limitless nukes across the neutral zone without triggering a war!


Yep, that was my point about probes not being different (actually less harmful) than any other type of ordnance.  It doesn't make sense to call just probes a treaty violation, you have to treat all ordnance the same way.

If you change the vote question to talk about ordnance rather than probes in particular, it becomes a more interesting question.  However, the precedent is apparently that it's always been the case that ordnance is fine... the captain is just being creative in their interpretation of the treaty [smile]

If it's changed (for all ordnance), then it means an in-game reason for the policy change, such as renegotiation of a peace treaty.
Mike Substelny

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Reply with quote  #23 
Another way to look at it: Probes are akin to today's spy satellites. Nobody likes having spy satellites over their territory but they are useful so nobody wants to ban them either. Spy satellites are simply a fact of life. In the Artemis universe it's a simple fact of life that sometimes Probes will go streaking through your territory scanning your stuff.
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janx

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Substelny


In the Border War scenario there are always lots of enemy ships and bases monitoring the Neutral Zone. The limit of AI sensors is never really established in the game. In practice it is the parameters of their brain stacks that simulate sensor range. Every AI brain stack can see ships & fighters but only an elite with anti-torp can see a torpedo.

I hadn't considered this before, but a player ship could lob limitless nukes across the neutral zone without triggering a war! That's kind of hilarious.


I wonder if Thom can detect that a ship was damaged by an enemy and use that and provocation to declare war (basically the Aggro effect of what faction hurt me).


Mike Substelny

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by janx

I wonder if Thom can detect that a ship was damaged by an enemy and use that and provocation to declare war (basically the Aggro effect of what faction hurt me).


The Artemis software does know what object fired every shot, except possibly mines, which are terrain (if you hit a mine it's always your fault even if somebody dropped it in your face). In theory Thom could do exactly what you are saying. And perhaps he is. It would be interesting to test that out.

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