Sign up Calendar Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
MarkBell

Avatar / Picture

Administrator
Registered:
Posts: 1,955
Reply with quote  #1 
Hi all - 

There's been more than one request for a game with the online community at Armada, pretty much since the first one.

The main problem with that has been that the Armada network has been completely insular - the ballroom has a local network only to reduce lag, and last year there were some stability issues with the several score computers that were accessing it.

I'm sure folks could use the hotel network to set up a game, but the main ballroom at least (where the majority of the bridges are) would not be able to access it.

Our network gurus are free to weigh in, but I don't think there's a good way to bring an external network connection to the local network in the ballroom.

__________________
Note - this is in no way intended to be an official position of Thom or Artemis, as I am not an official representative of the creator or game.
Hyperion Engineer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 91
Reply with quote  #2 

So I work in the communications industry (long-haul microwave data backhaul) but I’m not a high end network guru by any means.  I'm really just brainstorming here. So take all this with a grain of salt.

My thoughts on this are:

1) Everyone, all over the world, should just come to Armada.  That fixes the problem.  As awesome as this would be I realize it is may be impractical :-)  

2) Would the hotel be open to a dialogue about getting a fatter pipe to their internet connection directly.  I don't know exactly what those logistics would look like but I'm sure their router is bandwidth limiting connections, which is why we can’t just connect to their Wi-Fi and expect it to work, that and the other 500 hotel patrons trying to use it.  Could we pay a fee to have more of a dedicated connection?  I think it would just be some configuration changes on their end.  Not free but likely cost effective.  I think this cost could be offset by charging online players a little, even if it was voluntary.   

3)  There are “special event” internet providers that can come in and provide a high speed link just for the weekend.  I have never worked with a group like this but I know they exist.  I can only imagine this is expensive but I have no idea of the actual cost.   

4) Would it be possible for the server for the event to be off site somewhere with an excellent internet connection?  This only makes since if there are drastically more online players than there are local players.  The event coordinator would need to remote into the server to setup games etc.  The hotel internet would only have to support our connections out to the server.  To make this work we still may need to implement option 2.   
I believe local games on the LAN for the event could still happen.   This should not hinder a computer on the LAN from being a server for a pickup game.

5) Have we considered having armada at a location besides a hotel?  Are there event centers that could accommodate our networking needs?  As long as there was a hotel nearby I think this would be fine.
Personally I would be stoked about partying in a data center and staying in a space navy barracks in an adjoining event room.

Anyways, if there is anything I can do to help I would be happy to.  I’m looking forward to another AWESOME Armada!


__________________
Executive Officer and Chief Engineer of the TSN-Hyperion (Concord, NC)

TSN-Hyperion in dry dock at Hephaestus shipyards.
https://artemis.forumchitchat.com/post/tsnhyperion-bridge-build-8068440?pid=1291924499
mwick

Registered:
Posts: 64
Reply with quote  #3 

Infrastructure Engineer checking in.

Someone in the Eastern Front did some testing to guess at the requirements to host a server - came out to approximately 320kbps per client. Assuming we have ~20 clients connecting from the internet (is that too conservative?), that means only ~6 mbps connection, which should be more than doable. My biggest concern at that point would be latency - Artemis seems more affected by latency than sheer bandwidth, IMO. We'd be dealing with latency across the internet (international connections that's >200ms), going through a NAT at the hotel, routed connections, and jumping through whatever network is set up in the ballroom at Armada. We would probably want to work with the hotel to hook the Armada switches right up to the Hotel switch, and probably try to do something to eliminate the NAT. Not sure if that's something the Hotel would be comfortable with. 

I think moving to an off-site server would bring more problems, too. We'd be dealing with tons (>50?) of outbound connections instead of lots of inbound connections (>20?), which would probably put a bigger strain on the hotel network than vice versa. We wouldn't have to worry so much about any kind of NAT then, but I'd still anticipate problems.

The upshot, I think, is it would take a lot of coordination with the hotel's network to handle this efficiently, and it depends on exactly how far the hotel is willing to bend to accommodate.

 

I do like Hyperion Engineer's suggestion of a 'special event internet provider' - a fat, low-latency pipe straight into the ballroom would solve a lot of problems.


__________________

Lt. JG Wick

Artemis:Eastern Front
https://artemis.forumchitchat.com/post/artemis-eastern-front-8008146

LordEntrails

Registered:
Posts: 15
Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
I do like Hyperion Engineer's suggestion of a 'special event internet provider' - a fat, low-latency pipe straight into the ballroom would solve a lot of problems.


Google gave me a these;
a) < $3750 Trade Show Internet
b) Tele Pacific (probably not in the area needed)
c) WLanJV
d) Simply Bits
e) Slice

Hughes Net might since they are satellite based, but I couldn't find it and didn't want to call.

I would suggest asking the local (to wherever the Armada is held) ISPs. They probably do this or know who does in there area.

A case study (2013) about doing this; http://planyourmeetings.com/case-study-installing-temporary-internet-for-meetings-and-events/
Matsiyan

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 70
Reply with quote  #5 
It would be for the TSN RP leaders to speak to it, but I could imagine one, two or three Armada ships making a guest appearance in a TSN RP shift if it was arranged well in advance. They might be from another TSN division, cadets or auxiliaries of whatever species according to circumstances.

20:00-24:00 UTC would I think start at  2 pm or 3 pm in Cleveland (Centrral or East Coast?)

Cheers,

Murray

------
Please note that I do not speak on behalf of the TSN RP organization in other than a goodwill capacity :-)

__________________
Captain Conrad Matsiyan - TSN Viper
4th Light Division, 2nd Space Fleet, Terran Stellar Navy
TSN RP Community  |  WTSN Fleet News Pulse Podcast  |  Stellar Navigation Console
Hyperion Engineer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 91
Reply with quote  #6 
I haven't done nearly as much online play as others have but I had imagined there would be some sort of schedule of online accessible games open to anyone and there would end up being a good number of people connecting to play.  I had pictured some sort of online coordinator on team speak helping people team up and streamline the process.  Pre-event signups could help that process too.  

Based on that vision I sort of assumed there would at time be at least as many outside connections as LAN connections.  Each "bridge" could potentially have quite a few connections.  If 6 people per bridge are each running two instances (Their station and main screen) you could end up with 12 connections to the server per bridge.  I know if the Hyperion team is all sitting in the same room with each other we always run about 9 different machines (we like a lot of maps).  This estimate may or may not be accurate. 

If we had the extra bandwidth it would be cool to have a live stream of the ballroom and/or "virtual presence" cams for events.  I think HowtoStarship did some live streams during Armada last year.  I assume they were using hotel WiFi but I don't know.

We are going to simultaneously need a good vision of what the Hotel is willing to do and what we are trying to accomplish to be able to really develop a plan in this regards.  I'm sure there is sufficient interest online to make the effort worth while.   

__________________
Executive Officer and Chief Engineer of the TSN-Hyperion (Concord, NC)

TSN-Hyperion in dry dock at Hephaestus shipyards.
https://artemis.forumchitchat.com/post/tsnhyperion-bridge-build-8068440?pid=1291924499
notsabbat

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,297
Reply with quote  #7 

so, I havent tested it, but I always thought that the "War Server Proxy" could do a lot to solve the problem with having lots of connections. https://artemis.forumchitchat.com/post/artemis-war-server-proxy-7946795?highlight=war+server&pid=1292295802

Basically allowing clients to connect to a proxy server and then having that server connect to the main server. Hopefully that means a bridge with 12+ connections could connect to a remote server as if it were one connection.

just a thought.


__________________
-Captain of the TSN Gungnir JN-001
-Eastern Front online group member
-My continuing bridge build:
http://artemis.forumchitchat.com/post/immersion-bridge-build-in-progress-7335195?pid=1290158413
Mooga

Registered:
Posts: 35
Reply with quote  #8 
If you did bring in internet, you will only want the servers to have internet access.  In that case, you would also want to run your VoIP software (most likely mumble) on the servers as well.
Hyperion Engineer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 91
Reply with quote  #9 
notsabbat, in response to your post.  I'm not familiar with the war server proxy but it does sound like it is potentially a powerful tool.  I read through the post you listed but I'm afraid I don't have the technical expertise to really understand what is happening. 

Does the translation into a single connection bring with it any additional benefits like a reduction in total bandwidth needed?  If it is just passing along all the same info it may not be helpful especially if it tacks on some overhead. However, if it hands off a streamlined version of the data or better yet handles some of the game computations and hands some simplified server to server data it would be even better.  



__________________
Executive Officer and Chief Engineer of the TSN-Hyperion (Concord, NC)

TSN-Hyperion in dry dock at Hephaestus shipyards.
https://artemis.forumchitchat.com/post/tsnhyperion-bridge-build-8068440?pid=1291924499
Hyperion Engineer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 91
Reply with quote  #10 
I'm just throwing this out there but has anyone considered using a load balancing router?  I was picking one of our network engineers brain about this problem in vague conceptual terms today and he brought up the idea.

From my very limited research so far you can use a load balancing router to distribute connections across multiple WAN connections.  For this particular case I am thinking about the hotel internet connection, potentially a LTE modem or other (non-hotel) wifi networks.  The routers I have read about aren't aggregating the connections just pushing out single connections over the next best available connection.  

I look forward to some feedback.  


__________________
Executive Officer and Chief Engineer of the TSN-Hyperion (Concord, NC)

TSN-Hyperion in dry dock at Hephaestus shipyards.
https://artemis.forumchitchat.com/post/tsnhyperion-bridge-build-8068440?pid=1291924499
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.